TWENTY-SEVEN
Maeve
I had thought that recording an episode with my therapist back at the Streamify studios would be more anxiety inducing than any previous episode. When I brought it up back in Milan, I hadn’t really thought we’d do it, but it had been something that had been percolating for a while, because I thought it could be a good way to establish my credibility as a more serious interviewer, which would help my case for the solo show. It’s more personal than anything I’ve done, and we’ll be talking about my most painful, core issues. But as Finn hits Record on each camera, I don’t feel nervous at all.
Finn is listening in to the episode from outside the studio, then will come back to do the Questions of the Week segment with the two of us. I would have been happy to have him here for the entire interview, but he insisted that it didn’t make sense; and now that we’re actually starting, it does feel right with just Jenn and me. But even though it feels right, now that we’re good again, I miss having his reassuring presence in the chair next to mine. But I’m looking forward to showing that I can carry the show solo.
“This week on Tell Me How You Really Feel I’m doing something totally new. I’m sitting down with someone who’s both an expert and someone I have a deeply personal relationship with. This is Jenn, and she’s been my therapist since I was thirteen years old. She specializes in generalized anxiety disorder and cognitive behavioral therapy, but I can confirm that she’s so knowledgeable in so many other areas as well. Jenn, thank you for being here today.”
“Thanks for having me Maeve. This is definitely different from our usual sessions. The setting alone is … very whimsical.”
I laugh. “That’s one way to put it! This already feels strange. Like it’s a mix between therapy, an interview, and just chatting.” I can tell that this is strange for Jenn too, and I’m sure the different type of episode and guest will feel odd to our viewers, so I want to acknowledge the awkward.
“Agreed. But it’s great seeing you in person!”
“It is! Jenn and I first started working together in person when I lived outside Pittsburgh back home. We continued that when I was at CMU, since that’s also local. But ever since I moved to New York, and now LA, our sessions have been primarily virtual.” I pause, waiting to see if Jenn will jump in. But she seems to be waiting for me to set the tone and get things started. “I’ve mentioned having anxiety in previous episodes, but I’ve never fully dived into what that looks like and feels like for me. It’s been a lifelong struggle, and Jenn has been my guiding light along the way as it has ebbed and flowed and I’ve worked on my strategies for dealing with it.”
I pause and look to Jenn to jump in. If there are any awkward beats while we get our footing here I’ll just cut them out in post, which I told her before we started. “Working with the same patient for such an extended period of time is relatively unusual in therapy these days, and I’ve really enjoyed getting to know Maeve.”
“If you have questions, just ask them,” I tell Jenn, since she seems hesitant to continue. “I edit this and can always cut things out.”
“I’m used to keeping things confidential. This is all very unusual, and so I feel strange divulging details of your journey.”
I nod thoughtfully. I would feel the same way. That’s something I would have to balance in my solo show too, so I’m glad we’re doing this now, so I can start thinking through problems like this before I present my idea to a network. “I give you my permission to be completely candid. If there’s anything that feels too personal, I’ll cut it out in post. I know this is unusual, but I think it’ll be a great episode and help a lot of our viewers.”
“Okay,” Jenn says after a moment. “When I met Maeve, she was thirteen years old and was dealing with anxiety in a big way for the first time. It’s very common for the onset of anxiety to be in puberty, but as I got to know Maeve more, we learned that she had experienced feelings of anxiety from a much younger age.”
“That’s true. I didn’t even realize it, but the dread I’d feel before going to a birthday party without my sisters, or the stress I felt even in third grade when I had to rush to get my homework done because I had been at my sisters’ activities all day, was actually anxiety. At the time, I would mainly just cry, and my mom thought I was throwing a temper tantrum, or hungry, or tired. She would feed me, put me to bed, and let me cry it out. Which is exactly what her mom always did. But in reality, at that age that was just the only way I knew how to express my anxiety. Having those big feelings be overlooked really hurt.”
I worry that I sound cold while I talk about this. I’m not crying or tearing up, but I’ve spent so many hours thinking about this over the years that it’s almost old news to me at this point. It’s a core wound, but one I already have explored for years. “My parents grew up really blue collar, and they were busy just trying to keep the lights on. Like, literally. We haven’t talked about that on the show ever, but I grew up pretty poor. I can’t count how many times our electricity and gas was turned off because the money had been used on my sisters’ pageants or soccer fees. We were a “toughen up and bear it and support your family” house, and it sometimes made me feel like I didn’t matter. It definitely made me think that there was something wrong with me because I couldn’t just tamp down my feelings like my sisters could. And I also felt that way because I wasn’t good at anything that people in our small town deemed important, and my parents focused all their time and resources on my siblings. I know it was because they understood how to help them excel, like they only had to help in a tangible way. Buy dresses. Buy cleats. Drive them to events. And what I really needed was more emotional support and care, which was just something they weren’t educated about.”
“Even now,” Jenn says, “you seem to carry a lot of guilt. It’s okay to admit that your parents hurt you. That their best was not enough in certain moments.”
“Putting on my own therapist hat for a moment … I love when you give me permission to feel hurt. Because I have anxiety, I struggle a lot with guilt. I am such a people pleaser. I worry that my loved ones will stop loving me if I express my feelings, even though that’s irrational. I know they won’t. They love me and just were working with the limited tools they had.”
“That’s true. And it’s also true that it’s okay for you to feel hurt. Feeling anger or pain doesn’t make you a bad person. I think something that we’ve spent a lot of time on, maybe the most time on over the years, is identifying intrusive thoughts versus true thoughts, and learning how to sit with uncomfortable feelings and work through them in a way that is as healthy as possible in the moment.”
“Do you want to elaborate on what that looks like? With me or in general?”
Jenn nods, taking her time. “For example, if you set a boundary and tell your mom that when you’re home for Christmas you won’t be going to the Miss Pennsylvania pageant, that may upset her. She hasn’t spent the same amount of time and effort working on healthy behaviors that you have, so she may say something hurtful and triggering.”
I jump in. “Like, ‘Don’t you want to support your sister?’ Even though I spent the first eighteen years of my life supporting her nonstop at the expense of my own time and schoolwork.”
Jenn nods. “Right. So that may make you feel anxious. And it could start a whole range of intrusive thoughts that are based on your anxiety, not on reality.”
I interject again. “Like that Claude must be mad at me. My mom won’t want to talk to me anymore. Why am I such a bad person. I’m a fuckup. I can’t do anything right. And on, and on, until I’m having a panic attack.”
“Right. That was not your mom’s intended result. And your sister has done a million shows and probably isn’t invested in whether you’re at this specific one. If she knew how draining it is for you, she would probably rather you not go. You know that, yet in the moment it’s hard for the rational thoughts to prevail, and you can easily spiral, especially if you’re already in a weakened emotional state due to normal stressors. But, if you can identify that those intrusive thoughts are starting, you can combat them. You can combat them by writing down true thoughts in your journal. And you can do something that lowers your anxiety overall, like turning your phone off and reading a book or taking a long shower.”
I fake a cough theatrically as I supply my own coping strategy for when I’m teetering on the edge of a panic attack. “Weed gummy.”
Jenn cracks a smile. “I recommend nonmedication-based strategies as a first step. But if an edible keeps you from having a panic attack, I see no issue with it.”
Jenn and I continue to dive into the nitty gritty of cognitive behavioral therapy, panic attacks, how anxiety presents in different ways, and how I’ve progressed over time, for two more hours. I’ll have to cut this episode down, since once Finn’s in the room with us we spend another hour doing Questions of the Week. But at the end of it I can’t stop smiling, despite all the tough things we’ve talked about, because I know that this episode is going to help people. So many people can’t afford therapy, and while I know the real goal is to make therapy accessible to all, in the meantime I’m glad that I can fill that gap in some way.